Axes in early Ireland

[the_power]

Check out The Journal of the Mail Research Society - it's the best single article I've ever read on mail. It'll answer every question you could possibly ask. Though, seeing as you are interested, I think I might make up a mail making tutorials for the new tutorials.livinghistory.ie - I think I could do a decent 3 min video on going from bare wire to the finished product.

Basically, there is a massive difference between butted and riveted mail. Imagine making two fists, and joining them together, knuckle to knuckle, making the strongest link you can. Get your wife to pull your fists apart. Chances are, she can. Now, get her to do the same, only this time have get her to grip each fingers, interlocked. The extra purchase likely means you can't pull her arms apart.

When I make mail at gigs, I make up some links from 0.9mm wire, and some from 0.5mm wire. The 0.9mm butted links look pretty sturdy, until you make a chain - a simple twist breaks them apart. The 0.9mm riveted links can't be broken up without a chisel an hammer, though enough stretching will deform them. The 0.5mm riveted links are still stronger than the 0.9mm butted links, at under half the weight. Most mail is flattened into discs. This actually makes it much stiffer, and resistant to stretch damage than round links. Also, the action of hammering the link work-hardens it a little more.

Oh, don't go for an axe yet. I'm firmly of the belief that no one should field with a sword till they've trained with a spear for a year..and you should field with a sword for a year before training with an axe. It's...hard to control it safely. As for shields...for 12th-14th, a heater shield is fine. There are descriptions of a Gallowglass in the early 1300s getting shot in the chest *through* his shield during a seige, so fine for Irish.

John

[Cuda]

Thak you, yet again! i hav been looking online and found a place that sells riverted mail but it's $300 and i'm assumeing thats USD, not to mention it comes in one size and im 6'7" but only 176 lbs... I'm not very 'one-size-fits-all-friendly'

Have a spear on order and should start training on the 16th, i'll be sure to let you know how it goes. I'm going to hold off on any more decisions untill my frend has sent me some things he would like me to look at, sould make decision making a whole lot easier. Off to read that mail article now, thanks again!

Oh just one thing before i go, i assume people used their shield as a sort of ram if the opportunity called for it, is that safe or should should i just not let the thought cross my mind in combat? How would you feel if somebody did it to you?

[the_power]

I'd be very wary of any place selling riveted mail for that price. The only places I could recommend are HistoricEnterprises.com and Capapie.co.uk; both do flat, authentic riveted mail with wedge or round rivets (depending on period). A few places do much heavier dirtier mail, which isn't as good quality. Both would charge around $750 or £500 depending on what you are looking for. Most reenactors inherit an old heavy butted hauberk until they are sure they know what they are doing, then upgrade to something better when they can afford it.

I've done shield wall charging. It's great fun, and a wonderful way to lose teeth and break ribs. You also get to find out about the loose nails and tacks in other guys shields.

If the other guys are up for it, work away. Make sure you have a decent gambeson, and keep your shield lower than your face and the other guys' face. A guige strap is recommended. At Hastings 2006, myself and a few of the guys from livinghistory.ie got talked into being part of a 'Boar Snout' - wedge - formation in the center of the Norman line. About 60 of us sprinted uphill in heavy mail, helms and coifs. We hit the Saxon line with such immense force that we split it in two, despite it being 4 men deep, and they were braced for impact. I'll never forget noticing that I was forced so high in the air (all 90kg + 30kg armour) that my chest was as high as the next guys helmet...and he was off his feet also. When we came down, we fell all over the place, and were set upon by Saxon nasties. A number of minor injuries were taken on both sides, but everyone was reasonably safe. Incredible.

John

[frodo]

On the point of Irish crusaders I discovered this the other day and although the manuscript is not given there seems to be some other written evidence to support it scattered on interwebs... I know its a bit off topic but it is interesting and vaguely related.

"An extract from an old English manuscript gives an account of another disaster to Dunseverick Castle in the 12th century: "Many hundred years ago there stood on Erin's northern coast a stately castle called Dunseverick. It was inhabited by a noble family of the Kinel Owen. It was thronged with gallowglasses and kerns and attendants of the powerful chief who dwelt in it. No foe had dared to annoy it for many years.

At last news reached Ireland that King Baldwin of Flanders and Godfrey de Bouillon were enrolling a body of young men to join the Crusaders. The young heir of Dunseverick got his father's consent, and got enrolled under the banner of the Cross. Many of the sons of the northern chiefs accompanied young Turlough of Dunseverick. Ere long these young Irishmen proved by deeds that they were second to none in Europe for warlike achievements and feats of arms, and the fame of Ireland was spread abroad as the island of warriors and scholars. When Antioch was besieged young Turlough was among the first to mount the walls, and ten months later, when the Holy City was taken, Turlough was found in the thick of the fight till the last of the Turks was slain and the streets were running with blood. Then Godfrey de Bouillon was crowned King of Jerusalem, with the title of Protector of the Holy Sepulchre. Most of the Crusaders then returned home, and with them was Turlough of Dunseverick."

The rest of the story can be found here, http://www.booksulster.com/library/sket ... verick.php Solid hollywood stuff but interesting if the original "english manuscript" could be found

[brendan]

(Without references) there is evidence of Irish nobles going on pilgrimage to Rome. This does not equate to going on the Crusades but does show an inclination to overseas religious tourism.

At Hastings 2006, myself and a few of the guys from livinghistory.ie got talked into being part of a 'Boar Snout' - wedge - formation in the center of the Norman line.

Talked into? I thought it was more of a gibber of glee and a gate crash - and I was there!

Cuda,
before you get into the exact details of what your kit should be you need to decide on the social status of the person you represent. If you haven't so much cash to spare then I recommend you pick the underrepresented lower status parts of society.
There is a huge variance in the availability of swords in history. I am not sure of the exact point when they were affordable with a couple of weeks wages - this should determine whether it fits with the rest of your kit. However, if you are part of a group that trains exclusively with sword then the decision is probably moot.
I would echo John's concern about training with the Axe. However, there is nothing to stop you buying one and tying it in place on your belt so that it cant be used - you get the look of it that way.
The shield bash is great, but if people aren't up for it they can get injured/annoyed.

Of course, there is a question as to whether there was any distinctively Irish clothing during the time period in question. The safe bet is NO. However, there are some dissenters on that one

In summary: I would start with general purpose low status 13th century kit. If you are low on cash then I suggest buying Sarah Thursfields Medieval Tailor's Apprentice - that gives instructions on how to make all sorts of clothing (just stay away from the fitted garments for a while); It is much cheaper (but time consuming) to make than buy.

BTW, what is the time period focus of the group that you are in?

Brendan

[Seathrun]

(Without references) there is evidence of Irish nobles going on pilgrimage to Rome. This does not equate to going on the Crusades but does show an inclination to overseas religious tourism.

At Hastings 2006, myself and a few of the guys from livinghistory.ie got talked into being part of a 'Boar Snout' - wedge - formation in the center of the Norman line.

Talked into? I thought it was more of a gibber of glee and a gate crash - and I was there!

Brendan

Oh that brings back good memories. Brendan thanks for letting me in the line with Conquest.

Seth

[Andrea L Redden]

The axes I've seen in books and on the web were all Petersen type M, not what I'd call 'bearded'. I'll look up the photos/links at home tonight and post them with any available dating.

Andrea

[Cuda]

Brendan, the group i am in focuses within a 50 year bracket, 25 yeas either side of 1205 (fourth crusade). The group is fairly new and i missed out by around two months of being a 'core' member. Now they have firm rules as to what knewbies have to do when they first join, for example, training for at least 6 months witha spear before being upgraded to sword and so on... Ongoing safty training and so forth, none of this bothers me, though.

Also they are quite hands on with helping the new guys, providing basic kit and helping with things such as very basic clothing and even a chain mail shirt (i think thats what i heard at the last meeting anyway).
Also i have some access to hornes, bone and possibly cow hides through my workplace. Wasn't extreemly happy at having to start out as a squire untill i have proven my ability to stay in period at a public gig, and behave myself while on the 'mead' at one of the camps that we do on occasion, concidering i haveknown them for a while now.


In my nxt reply i'll post a link to our site if you like but the new wife has a sore back, there is work to be done... bye for now.

[Andrea L Redden]

Namely would the Irish have used bearded axes too?

Hello Neil!
True ‘bearded axes’ �I’v�r�hem�fined predate the 11th C. The majority of the Irish finds I’ve se�ref�nces � are Petersen type M which are dated up to the eleventh century. eurl]http://forum.blankvaapen.org/showthread.php?t=744[/url]
There was a type M from PRIA Vol.XLIII Sect.C No.5 Ballinderry Crannog No. 1 by H. O’Neill H�ken F� 5 and �e 143 which the text describes as “…in excel��reserv�� measure��8 inches long and is 5 ¼ wide at the �ade…..”
t[i�][attachtment�eBa�a.�[/attachment][/img]There is another type M here http://www.mglarc.ie/projects/viking_dublin/dubh_linn.htm
Additionally in Viking Antiquities in Great Britain and Ireland Part III Norse Antiquities in Ireland by Johs. Boe.:
There are 2 listed under Kilmainham/Islandbridge on pages 32-33 (Wk. 12, W. 20, D. 363 & Wk. 13, W. 100, D. 363)of types C and/or D which are ninth to early tenth century and another on page 64 of type of similar dating.
1905: 176: Thin, small axe, very like Rygh 558 (which is a type M - ALW), somewhat rusty, but complete. Length 10,3 cms., width of cutting-edge 7,2 cms. Illustr. Journal R.S.A.I. pl. 28, vol. XXIII. Cf. Vol. XXIV, p. 315. Found in Moylarg Crannog, Co. Antrim
Wk. 72, I. 72: Slender axe. As to the form it is very like the Norwegian axes Rygh 554-555 (don’t have pictures of�ese so I’m no�ure what they’d be� Peterse� typ�gy – ALW) witho�ing identi�. Rus� but �rly�mplete. Leng�12,5 cms., �th of cutting edge 7,5 cms. Found in Strokestown crannog, Co. Roscommon.
Wk. 5: Excellently preserved axe-head, from the form Petersen: Vikingesverd, fig. 49 (which is a type L - ALW). Width of cutting edge 13,7 cms. Found in one of the Strokestown crannogs, Co. Roscommon.
Wk. 8: Iron axe of the same form as Petersen: Vikingesverd, fig. 45 (Type M – ALW). The cutting edge has �dently been reground �modern times. Otherwise the � is complete, and very well preserved. Width of cutting edge 18 cms. Found in the River Boyne, on the gravel, under 6 feet of alluvial deposits, near the old Castle of Donore, Co. Louth. img]

Petersen Type M axe from River Boyne

AxeBoyne1.jpg (43.5 KiB) Viewed 4175 times

[/img]
Plus: W. 6 (type M – ALW) Width of cutting edge 17�cms. Boyne near Castler�ard, Co. Meath
Wk. 7 (type M –�W) Width of cutting edge 11,5�s. Tuam, Co. Galway
W. 3 �pe M – ALW) Width of cutting edg�5 cms�onymore Lake, Co. Cavan
Wk.� (type M – ALW) River Shannon
Wk. �type M – �) Width of cutting edge 17,8 �. �er Robe, near Robe Abbey, Co. M�R�][attachment=0]AxeRobe1.jpg[/attac�nt][/img]
Wk. 2 (type M – ALW) Width of cutting edge 20,3 cms. Ke�gue on the Shannon, Co. Offaly
Wk� (type M – ALW) Width of cutting edge 14�cms. No l�lity listed.
Wk. 83 (type M – ALW) �th of cutting edge 16,9 cms. No loc�ty lis�.
S.A. 1908: 12 (type M – AL�Width of cutting edge 15,6 cms. No local� li�d.
Wk. 9 (type M – ALW) Present w�h of cutting edge 13 cms. No l�lity listed.
N
�lo John!
Couldn’t figur�ut how to find the manuscripts you refer�to from�e website. Which of the listed in�tutions were they held at?

Bye for now,

Andrea

[Morcant]

I've heard it said that the Irish did not use axes in combat until the arrival of the vikings. Now assuming this statment is true does anyone know if there was much difference between the axes used by the Irish for combat and those used by the vikings? Namely would the Irish have used bearded axes too?

I think Irish did use axes in battle before the IXth century.

The following are LaTene weapons, found in Ireland according to what I know (but unfortunately no more informations), and there is two axe blades.




Here some axe blades found at Lagore Crannog (VII-Xth century if I remember), some beeing probably viking but you can notice even a francisca-like blade, (C). (A) got a very similar shape of an axe found in South Cadbury hillfort, dated from circa 500 AD, and of course can be more of a tool than a weapon.

And here on a plate from Osprey Pictish Warrior, another axe blade found in Ireland. It have sometime termed similar to viking bearded axes, but what is striking is it's similarity with T-bar axes encarved on Pictish stones from the VIIIth and IXth centuries.



Some exemples :