Were the roman army ever in Ireland(1st Cen AD)

[gaius marius]

(Were the roman army ever in Ireland) That is the Question any opions

[Nerva]

Oh no, here we go again

The important thing is that the Romans are here now

[tri]

Hi folks,

Can some of our modern day romans chime in on this? Billy had kicked off the same discussion on the old site but the Roman side was verrrrry quiet about the whole thing....

This is no sort of challenge by the way! Just curiosity on my (and I guess others...) part and I'd love to hear from people who've done more research on the period. A couple of undergrad lectures many moons ago is as far as I ever got

Tríona

[Nerva]

Hi Tri

It's not that we don't want to engauge on the subject, it's just that it ends up being so very time consuming. Right now I'm working to publish a paper on the subject and will let the community see it in due course. Pullo posed the question 'Were the Romans ever in Ireland?'. I think the answer to that has to be an emphatic yes! The real question is What Were They Doing Here?

The remains of a 1st century A.D. Roman fort can be found at Drummanagh, near Lusk in North Co. Dublin. Finds from this site, including both military and civillian, are in storage at the National Museum in Kildare Street. How do I know this? I have spoken directly with one of the senior archiologists who was present when the finds were brought in and stored at the museum.

Unfortunately Dummanagh is an example of utter incompetence on behalf of our historical institutions. Firstly, Roman artifacts we're been taken from the site for over 100 years by amatures. When treasure robbers began seriously raping the site in the 1980's the National Museum began to get interested. They did an extensive examination of the site themselves but never secured it. Meanwhile wholescale raping of the site continued. Eventually, and far too late in the day it was declared as a National Monument but's still the subject of a number of legal action between the landowner and the treasure robbers. The museum has recovered some of the finds but the rest are part of private collections.

Why the National Museum don't publish a catalogue of the finds is quite baffeling and I can only hazard a guess as to why - to protect the myth of and Ireland untouched by Rome?

Anyway, there's much more to the discussion of Roman Ireland that this. Here's a good list of references given to me by an expert on the subject, Richard Warner:

Select Bibliography on Romans in Ireland and other connections with the Classical world (from R Warner).


Adams, C., 1996, 'Hibernia Romana? Ireland & the Roman Empire', History Ireland, 4.2, 21-25. (orthodox view).
Bateson, D., 1973, 'Roman material from Ireland: a reconsideration', Proc. Royal Irish Academy, 73C, 21-97. (basic catalogue; crucial)
Di Martino, V., 2003, Roman Ireland (Cork). (very misleading)
Freeman, P., 1995, 'Greek and Roman views of Ireland: a checklist', Emania (Bulletin of the Navan Research Group), 13, 11-13. (basic texts; crucial)
Freeman, P., 2001, Ireland and the Classical World (Austin). (basic texts; crucial)
Kenney, J., 1929, Sources for Early Irish History (New York). (useful)
Killeen, J., 'Ireland in the Greek and Roman writers', Proc. Royal Irish Academy, 76C, 207-215. (discussion; perceptive & interesting)
O'Rahilly, T. F., 1946, Early Irish History & Mythology (Dublin). (difficult but crucial)
Ó Ríordáin, S. P., 1947, 'Roman material in Ireland', Proc. Royal Irish Academy, 51C, 43-53. (out of date, some insights)
Pokorny, J., 1954 , 'Die Geographie Irlands bei Ptolemaios', Zeitschrift für Celtische Philologie , 29, 94-120. (out of date, some insights)
Raftery, B., 1996, Pagan Celtic Ireland (London) (discussion; necessary)
Raftery, B., 1996, 'Drumanagh & Roman Ireland', Archaeology Ireland, 10.1, 17-19. (orthodox view)
Rankin, D., 1996, Celts and the Classical World (London) (2nd edition) (discussion, insightful)
Tierney, J., 1976, 'The Greek geographic tradition and Ptolemy's evidence for Irish Geography', Proc. Royal Irish Academy, 76C, 257-265. (important)
Warner, R., 1976, 'Some observations on the context & importation of exotic material in Ireland, from the first century BC to the second century AD', Proc. Royal Irish Academy, 76C, 267-292. (analysis, slightly out of date)
Warner, R., 1991, 'The earliest history of Ireland', in Ryan, M. (ed), The Illustrated Archaeology of Ireland (Dublin), 112-116. (simple summary)
Warner, R., 1991, 'Cultural intrusion in the early Iron age: some notes', Emania 9 (1991), 44-52. (peripheral but necessary)
Warner, R, 1995, 'Tuathal Techtmhar: a myth or ancient literary evidence for a Roman invasion?', Emania (Bulletin of the Navan Research Group), 13, 23-32. (the reinterpretation)
Warner, R., 1996, 'Yes, the Romans did invade Ireland', British Archaeology, 14, (1996), 6 (defence)
Warner, R., 1996, 'De Bello Hibernico', Archaeology Ireland, 10,3 (1996), 38-40 (defence)
Warner, R., 2000, ‘Clogher: an archaeological window on early Medieval Tyrone and Mid Ulster’, in Dillon, C. & Jefferies, H. (eds), Tyrone, History and Society (Dublin), 39-54.
Warner, R., 2000, Irish entries in R. Talbert (ed), The Barrington Atlas of the Greek and Roman World (Princeton).

I hope you this of use as I did.

[brendan]

There are plenty of other examples of non-catalogueing of finds.
a look at http://audgen.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1094 will show that the romans are not being discriminated against!

Brendan

[Nerva]

I'm sure your right there Brendan, but the romns are the only ones that really matter, arn't they

[tri]

Thanks for that!

Great bibliography - plenty to keep me distracted from work

[Billy]

Nice reply. Thanks for that.

I think the reason that drumanagh is not talked about is due to the fact that there is an outstanding lawsuit, and all matters relating to it, including finds, are pard of a sub judiciae (sp?) order, so while it is before the courts, we can't talk about the finds.

I find that a lot more credible than the anti Roman conspiracy anyway.

[Nerva]

Hi Billy

I would reccomend you get yourself a copy of "Roman Ireland" by Vittorio Di Martino, The Collins Press, ISBN-13 978-1905172192. On first readin this book can seem a bit franetic, but bear with it as there is quite a lot of good stuff in it. Apart from that get your hands on anything by Richar Warner or Brendan Raftery, well worth a read.

On the subject of Drummanagh, there we're principally two legal actions. The first was with the original land owner and related primarily to the declaration of the site of the site as a national monument, this case has been resolved in favour of the Nation Museum. The second is over the issue of ownership of the recovered artifacts and compensation. This case will probably not be resolved for quite a while but there are no legal impediments to the display of the artifacts. Personally I dont give a Denarius for the conspiricy theory, but I fail to understand why the artifacts are not on display.

One of the basic problems is that a lot of people, particularily acedemics, assume that any mention of Romans in Ireland automatically means an argument about a Roman conquest and occupation of Ireland. I dont think there has ever been a Roman invasion of Ireland similar to the Caludian invasion of Brittannia, but I do beleive there is adaquite evidence to support Roman mission(s) in Ireland, both in the first and fourth century's A.D.

Anyway, we're here now

By the way, as you've probably guessed, I can't spellv

[gaius marius]

And its a bit silly that the roman army in some form(be it in Legion,corhort ect)did not durining the the time the roman army was in Britain (43-410AD) have a look at Ireland as a new market or as a new conquest. the country was know of as far as 800BC